Takatoshi Shibayama: 0:00

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to this week's episode of Blockhead's Blockcast. I'm your host, Takatoshi Shibayama. I'm also the head of APAC for Ledger. I aim to uncover the creative, intelligent, and radical minds who are shaping the crypto industry today. I'm as crypto curious as anybody that's tuning into this show. We're doing this together, guys. Let's go. Mr. Joey Isaacson. the CEO and co-founder of Nook. Welcome to the show.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 0:34

And you guys are building a savings app, which is really built for Web2. It's not really built for the Web3 people. And basically, you know, we have tons of payment wallets out there in Web3. You know, it's very full of jargons of like Web3. It's not really built for Web2. And the people who are coming into as a next generation of people who are looking at stable coins or different types of DeFi protocols, they don't really know that much things about Web3. So it is really important for the industry to actually could move beyond Web3 and get the Web2 people into this industry. And I love what you're trying to do here. And I'd love to dive more into this. But before we start talking about it, I'd really love to understand who you are as a person as well. I look through your profiles, you work for Facebook and Uber. I mean, what was your journey through your career? And then how did you get into crypto?

Joey Isaacson: 1:26

Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of got into crypto, not through the technology, but through the people. So when I joined Coinbase, there were two two key people I knew. One was Jason Hobby, the former CEO of Compound, actually asked me to join Uber. And then another was the head of design at Coinbase, Jeff Smith. And he was coming from Airbnb. And so they were both like, you know, this crypto thing, it's taking off. There's a lot of momentum. This was in 2019. And I had played around with crypto, but I never really envisioned myself in crypto. But once I took a look at the power of it, I was like, okay, there's something here. And I think for all of my career, I'd always been trying to make things more simple.

Joey Isaacson: 2:02

So at Uber, I was on Uber Freight. I I was trying to help trucks move more autonomously with robotics and software. At Facebook, I was trying to help users connect more directly to advertisers. It's all been about making things simpler in my career. And that's why I'm in product and design is how can we just make things simpler? It's always been my personality and it was therefore my career. I feel very lucky to be able to just jump in and try and make things simpler. And when I got to Coinbase and I got deeper into DeFi, I was like, oh, this could be a lot more simple. And that's kind of my unlock is taking things that maybe a few thousand or a few hundred people use and making it so that a few million people can use it. It's design and it's accessibility at scale. So getting to millions of people versus a few thousand people.

Joey Isaacson: 2:44

And right now the crypto community is great, but it's still relatively small. You know, in terms of active, real people in crypto, I know we've talked about this. I think it's 25,000 people, maybe 50,000 people, but there are not hundreds of millions of people using crypto every day, at least knowingly in the form of apps. And I think we can change that in one of those projects and one of those movements is Nook to change it towards millions of people using it every day. So that's really my guiding light is bringing things that are kind of niche and too technical or very advanced to everyone.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 3:14

I remember in my first job, I was a FX option trader and the guy who was sitting next to me, which is like a PhD in math, he told me that in order to simplify things, you have to know it more than anybody else because unless you know everything about it, you can't simplify it. So for you, when you joined Crypto how did you understand it and how did you process it so that you can simplify things? Because I think this is the thing that Web3 really doesn't do very well is to make people welcoming who doesn't understand Web3, right? So it's full, as I mentioned, it's full of jargons, full of words that we all kind of made up and it doesn't really make sense to people who are not in this industry. So for you, how did you kind of decompose it and then how did you process it so that you can actually make it simple?

Joey Isaacson: 4:02

Yeah, absolutely. I got a great education on crypto at Coinbase. And two things that have been really helpful for me is One, we got some really good advice. And this is from Will Robinson, who's now the CTO at Plaid. He always said, pick your interest because crypto is such a vast field. It's like investing. There's stocks, derivatives, futures, commodities. You can't do everything well in any field as big as investing or as big in crypto. And so I think a lot of people naturally went towards trading crypto, perps, options, et cetera. I do not love trading. It's very speculative. It's very up and down. I don't have the stomach for it. But I love the DeFi lending aspect of it. So passive income through earning. And I'm not an expert by any means, but I have spent most of my time there because that's where my interest was.

Joey Isaacson: 4:50

And so I didn't go deep into different parts of the trade and different parts of just crypto because I focused on DeFi lending. So that really helped me focus on, okay, here's something I love and I can spend a lot of time here. So find something that you're generally interested in. Don't try and learn all of crypto. It's too hard. Two was dogfooding is critical. So you can read papers, you can read all the tweets, et cetera, podcasts, et cetera. But I found personally that just trying something out, building that muscle memory of what it's like to sign a transaction in a self-custody wallet, enter into a vault or a lending market, just trying that out and seeing the reward stack up and seeing, oh, there's two different tokens that I get. There's the base token, the reward token. That just really helped me over time kind of build my understanding of trying things out. So I will always be a big believer and trier. I'll try out any app just to get a sense. That's really how I learned.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 5:40

I guess this time around in the US, you have a really good tailwind that, you know, the administration is very vocal about its support for crypto. Recently, they passed the Genius Act as well. Like in Singapore, there's about 25% of the population that actually have traded crypto or at least hold crypto. And that's a large fraction of the population. But because of this in the US, how many people actually start to understand what crypto is, or at least at the minimum, like understand what a stablecoin is?

Joey Isaacson: 6:11

Yeah, that's a great question. I think our numbers are similar. I would say actually, 25% is very progressive. I think we're more towards 18 or 20%. But what we've seen is that most people are not actively trading crypto, but they're crypto positive. And there's a few reasons for that. One is the new administration and just the legal kind of support through the Genius Act. Major politicians have supported crypto and gotten behind it. That helps clarify things because when I was at Coinbase building a similar product, that was the most hurtful thing is that we were not sure if the government was going to shut us down the next day. The second thing that's really helpful for people is just time. It's been three, four, almost four years since the entire meltdown of Celsius, BlockFi, and all those people responsible have gone through trials. Some of them have gone to jail. They've been fined or barred from practicing in the financial markets, which is good. Sad to see, obviously, but good in terms of people are starting to see, okay, the bad players have been weeded out of the deck. And now it's a time where we can actually build and trust.

Joey Isaacson: 7:08

So that trust is coming back around through those kind of two things, just time and government support. And that's what we're starting to see is really driving the tailwind. But now it's up to us at Nook and these other companies to really not mess it up, right? So not break the user's trust, not put a bad experience in front of them and definitely not mismanage any funds or manage any funds really. Like we're just kind of handing you off to the right protocol, but it would be really sad to see this new opportunity wasted with another Celsius or BlockFi here in the US and I think across the global financial markets.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 7:39

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think if you've been in Web3 long enough, there's at least one time that you've been rug pulled or wrecked or some kind of incident that really made you feel negative about the industry. And obviously, we don't want to see that again and again. I mean, it just kills off the momentum of the industry and also paints a really bad picture. Because, you know, I think a lot of us who are in the industry, who talk to people outside of it has a little bit of hesitation that actually you work in crypto. I don't think it's just me, but like, I think a lot of people have this, but oh, I just worked in fintech or kind of like, no, much around that topic so that, you know, people don't really kind of think negatively about you. While your time at Coinbase, which obviously is a blue chip in this Web3 industry, I've onboarded with a lot of exchanges prior to even onboarding to Coinbase. The experience was pretty awful.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 8:29

You know, the UI, UX, everything was pretty awful until I met Coinbase, where it was super simple. You know, it was kind of like built for beginners. You know, it just felt like that. It just kind of understood, okay, this is, you know, and I come from a trading background. So I can look at like Biff and X and all these like more professional or more kind of crypto native exchanges and thought, okay, well, this is pretty, you know, okay, but like for a newbie, this is going to be pretty hard, right? It just doesn't look like inviting for newbies in the industry. And Coinbase, obviously, it was very simple. I would say that that was like the core essence when I saw the UI was like simple, it's very easy to understand what are the kind of lessons that you learn at Coinbase that allowed you to kind of think, okay, now I'm going to undo our savings app? What was that kind of little journey that you had there?

Joey Isaacson: 9:16

Yeah, yeah. I think a huge thing I've learned at Coinbase is just repetition and understanding of the basics in terms of, I think we're seeing it today, but with AI, anyone can create an app, right? Anyone can say, oh, I built an app that trades crypto or I built an app that saves money with crypto within a week. And it's quite phenomenal, but not anyone can make something that's very high quality. And so with Coinbase, what I saw firsthand was we do a review with Brian every week sometimes to go over the experience. And Brian was actually a huge fan, not just of the experience, but of specifically the send crypto experience. He would go to parties and send $5 in Bitcoin to everyone that he bumped into that was curious about crypto. Instead of sending them a PDF or a link or a podcast, he would say, hey, let me send you $5 in Bitcoin. And he wanted to make sure he could pull his phone out, send $5 and under you know, 30 seconds or so without ruining the flow of the conversation and then just keep going.

Joey Isaacson: 10:14

And at first I was like, Oh yeah, that sounds pretty simple. I'm like, I'm sure you do it sometimes. And then I was getting dinner with a friend and he actually pulled out his phone and said, Oh yeah, I met Brian Armstrong. seven years ago at a party and he gave me $5 of Bitcoin and it was at that time worth $30,000. So I think the story that I learned from Brian is like, keep doing these core actions over and over and over again until they become extremely good and they can always get better. So I think what I learned from Nook is, you know, we could create a prototype. We did create a prototype of Nook within a week. We had an end-to-end flow of a saving DeFi flow in, you know, three or four days, but it has taken many, many weeks and months to get it to a point where it's much better. So we do it again and again and again. And I've learned that from Brian and Coinbase directly of take that one flow and just do it better than everyone else. That's what they've done with the core trade flow. And that flow does tens of billions of dollars in revenue per year. But it's technically the same flow as any other exchange, but it's just so much better.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 11:16

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I love that Brian has this mindset because anybody who's coming into crypto, they'll find the user experience horrendous. You know, I think even creating a wallet as an example, like the seed phrases, you know, and then he's like, you know hash of like you know letters and numbers and all these kind of stuff is like completely unusable outside of this world and that needs to really change i know i've met a lot of people within the industry this time around saying i want to make this thing better on this podcast we had Kane Warwick from Infinex, he was just building this like DeFi kind of aggregator platform to simplify things that you don't have to go to every single protocol you know you get the best yield out of your token and just wanted to make it simple as possible and i kind really resonated with that. And I think that a lot of people are trying to build this.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 12:04

But for you guys, like, how do you think you guys are trying to nail it in this time around? Like, I understand that from Coinbase, you know, simplifying the process. I love that. It's like a very Apple kind of mindset as well. It doesn't need to be difficult. You know, people don't want like just security or they don't want this like kind of tech jargon. They just want the good features, the easy way to kind of access crypto. So, you know, what is the core principle of what you want to do? and how do you want to achieve it?

Joey Isaacson: 12:31

Yeah, I think it starts with the messaging. And so I think a lot of web people understand DeFi, like, oh, connect a wallet. Yeah, there's some transaction fees, a gas fee, et cetera, protocol assigning. And they kind of get that, but it's written for them. Very few people have tried to write and communicate what Nook is or what DeFi lending is in a web two way. So one, it starts with the communication and the way we speak. So the way we write, the way we talk and the channels we use too.

Joey Isaacson: 12:59

So TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, channels that usually aren't used outside of normal crypto Twitter. How can we reach people there and through other publications? And then the second major thing is how do we just reduce steps? And I think there's about 15 or so steps if you want to lend on a protocol like Morpho or Aave. And we're just trying to take a look at, okay, how many steps end to end can we remove? And some steps, although they might not seem too hard, like signing after logging in, we want to remove that. And we're trying to remove every single step that's not necessary while also keeping your funds secure and still self-custody through your self-custody wallet. So that's the main thing. But to give you an example, one major thing that we've actually found a little frustrating about DeFi is that you get your base reward and then you get an extra token, a reward token. So it's a Morpho token or a seamless token. And it kind of comes in the middle of the night or randomly, and you have to go and claim, swap and redeem it, right? Which could be another two or three steps plus cost you money, et cetera, and time most importantly.

Joey Isaacson: 14:02

So we thought like, hey, what if we automatically do that? You know, for someone who's never heard of the Morpho token or these extra tokens, and they're not going to understand it easily, Let's automate that. Let's just do it for them in the background. And so that's another example of something that I think Web3 people not just understand and they don't mind it, but they actually love it. But if you talk to a normal everyday person, a Web2 person, they're like, no, I don't want to have to go back and do this process. I just want my rewards over time. And that's one of those things where we've been able to say, okay, this might disappoint a Web3 person, but that's okay. We're willing to take that risk and that trade-off in order to get results. two or three everyday people onto the platform.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 14:41

Right. And a lot of these DeFi lending platforms or any type of DeFi platforms, whenever you... want to have yield. Let's say I take a Bitcoin or Ether, whatever it is, and I lend it. And usually I get the rewards or the yield back in their native token, right? And this is what frustrates me quite a lot as well, is that I don't want their token. If I'm lending Bitcoin, I want my yield in Bitcoin, right? Or at least I want it in US dollar stables so that I don't have to worry about the volatility risk of holding those tokens. So, you know, I think that's the kind of like main barrier for a lot of people who are coming in. I mean, and I've been in the industry for a long time. So, you You know, I understand that I'm taking risk when I'm doing this, but ultimately I don't want it. So the moment I receive it, I just sell it into Bitcoin or a US dollar stable so that I don't want to worry about it. So how do we kind of like neutralize that risk for people who are using your app?

Joey Isaacson: 15:32

Exactly. And I think sometimes I do get excited about certain protocols. I'm like, oh, I do want the extra reward. I do want to hold it and see where it goes. And I think we'll get to the point where to Nook, where you can hold that extra token if you want. but the option should always be there because I don't wanna lose people who come in and say, oh, now I got to claim it and swap it and redeem it, or it's just too much. I want them to have that option, but the core base experience out of the box should be simple. When you get a new iPhone, it's very simple to set up. If you want to do some advanced settings, you can always go do that in your system configuration, but out of the box, Nook should be simple. And Coinbase has a very similar ethos. The Coinbase app is very simple. If you want to do advanced trade, there's a toggle in the app. but that's not for everyone.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 16:18

Yeah. I understand. And there was another episode I did with this company called Node Foundry, which is a AI agent marketplace and also a deep end marketplace. So obviously, if I'm like a normal person coming into their website, I don't have to deal with tokens at all, like zero. So they all handle that in the background for me. I just bring my AI agents and I search for the best compute and then off my AI agent goes. So could you Walk me through the kind of user experience once I log on to Nook app. Like what do I see? What can I get? Just take me through the journey.

Joey Isaacson: 16:49

Yeah, it's incredibly simple in terms of it looks more like a savings app. So it looks more like a cash app or a Robinhood. It doesn't look like a trading app. So when you get to the Nook app, you see your balance, which is just zero. And then there's a get started button and that's it. And from the get started button, we take you through the three main steps of getting earning with Nook. So we convert your cash to USDC. We don't tell you about different types of stable coins like USDT, et cetera. And then we tell you it's going to be earned on these protocols. And then the third step is that you'll start earning automatically and you'll earn every 16 seconds, you'll get paid out.

Joey Isaacson: 17:25

So you just go through those three steps. And then from there, you can onboard with three main ways, but through your existing bank via ACH payment or debit card. I think you guys have the similar kind of equivalent of fiat rails in Singapore, or you go through Coinbase, or you can deposit USDC directly What's been really interesting is that we've seen a mix of all three of those people going through Coinbase, USDC or bank rails kind of evenly, but a lot of people have increasingly as we become more popular, start to use bank rails, which is a really good sign, meaning it's people who don't have crypto and it's people who don't, you know, they're not in the crypto industry, which is cool. That's the core flow. Once you deposit, we take care of everything else. We take your funds, put them into USDC from USDC into the highest earning lending protocol at the time. And from there, you see your number go from zero to, let's say, $100. And that's it. There's no assigning. There's no selecting of a chain or selecting of a protocol. It rebalances every night on the highest earning protocol and goes from there.

Joey Isaacson: 18:23

I think with some apps, like you said, there are AI agents that you can type to and communicate to. We don't have that. It'll be really interesting to see, like, do people want to chat to an AI agent or do they just want to have an interface like Nook where they set it and forget it? I think it's going to be really interesting, like, to see will people leverage chatbots as we go into finance or do they want more traditional Web2 apps that look like Coinbase or like Cash App? Yeah, I'm really excited to see kind of where this goes.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 18:48

Yeah. So when I actually earn some yield on it and I see my savings grow and let's say I want to take that USDC and move it somewhere else, maybe Maybe I get a little bit crypto curious and I want to try out something more natively. Would that experience of sending funds kind of be the same as what we experienced in Web3 today, where you have to kind of copy and paste the address and send it, that kind of thing?

Joey Isaacson: 19:14

Yeah. Once you graduate to Web3, become more of a Web3 person and you feel comfortable sending it to a wallet you have with MetaMask or Coinbase wallet, then it's a normal send on base. So you have to copy the wallet address and go from there. That is still a little tricky. And so we show a few warnings because we want you to be careful when you do that because you could lose your money. And I've lost money that way. I think we've all lost money that way. And so we want you to be careful. But we do eventually... hope that some people say, oh, wow, Nook's lending protocols are very powerful, like Moonwell. I want to do more that Nook can't offer. And then they end up graduating, right?

Joey Isaacson: 19:48

I don't think Nook is for everyone. Hopefully some people say, yeah, I want to do more. I want to get my own wallet. And then we think a lot of people will be like, you know what? This is just enough for me and that's okay. So I think we saw that with Coinbase. We launched Coinbase Wallet and some people would say, hey, I love the Coinbase app and I'm going to move all my funds to self-custody with Coinbase Wallet. And, you know, that's a natural and healthy progression.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 20:09

I touched upon the Genius Act, so now there's gonna be a bunch of banks that are going to be issuing their own stablecoin in their own different ways and yes, there's going to be a slew of payment type wallets that's going to be created, including the Robinhoods of the world. How are you looking to compete in the ocean of banks and everybody else for a product that is fundamentally kind of providing similar types of savings?

Joey Isaacson: 20:41

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I think it can be very exciting, but it's going to be chaotic. Right. And I think if Every bank is trying to launch their own stable coin. It's all about distribution and how you access that. So I think by default, if let's say Bank of America launches their own stable coin, they can't just limit that to Bank of America customers, right? That's the beauty of a stable coin. It's available to everyone. So we could put any asset that's on base or potentially in the future on Ethereum, we could put it in Nook, right?

Joey Isaacson: 21:09

So Nook could be a place for everyone, whether it's your Bank of America, it's your Moonwell, Morpho, et cetera. Stable coins, USDC, USDT, it will be a versus some banks will say, well, we have this stable coin, so this is our stable coin and nothing else is available. Well, that's not kind of, maybe it works, but you better hope that works because if that's your only option, you're in trouble, right? But the beauty of crypto and the beauty of Nook is it's open. So we can put kind of anyone that we trust and we want on there. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is, I think with banks... you know, they're great at the relationships and the web 1.0 PDFs and emails and however they operate. I mean, you know better than I do.

Joey Isaacson: 21:49

Our second advantage is our speed. Like we're going to out-compete and we're going to out-maneuver them every single time. And so I think we're going to be able to provide a better experience. My Bank of America app still looks like it was made in 2014. So I hope that we can always be at the front and that will just make a better experience for customers.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 22:05

Yeah. And I could tell you another advantage I can think of is that the banks don't really want to give you interest, right? They just want to take your money and multiply it and then use it as a loan to somebody else. And that's kind of their revenue model, right? So for you guys, you're thinking about the client first, where, you know, you want them to earn a higher yield on savings that they have. I think that'll be your biggest advantage because no bank is going to give you anything higher than risk-free rate. And that's a given.

Joey Isaacson: 22:35

Banks don't give you higher than anything that they have to. If JP Morgan or Wells or the bank is giving you X, they will give you X. ,plus maybe a little bit more, but not really. And that's totally different in crypto because crypto is very competitive. And so therefore the customer always gets a higher rate.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 22:50

Yeah. And so what's on the roadmap for you guys now? So you have the savings, it's a lending protocol behind the hood. So what's next? What is on the roadmap now?

Joey Isaacson: 22:59

Yeah, I still think we are perfecting that kick, you know, in terms of Bruce Lee quote, like, I fear a man that's practiced one kick a thousand times versus a thousand kicks. So we're still perfecting that core flow of making it as simple as possible to get it on there. And the feedback we've been getting for customers the more kind of details we've noticed and have been trying to perfect so that's definitely on the roadmap for the next month or so.

Joey Isaacson: 23:19

After that we've seen a lot of great ways to expand into other protocols and other chains we've had a lot of great people reach out and say hey when is x going to be here or y and i think that's something that we want to think about carefully because remember like the average person coming on to nook is not a web free person they're web 2 so we don't want to expose them to anything that would be too risky for them and for us. So I think expansion of many more ways to earn is next.

Joey Isaacson: 23:45

And then three after that, it's about making Nook more holistic as an experience, right? So once you have your money on there, then what? People have been asking about a debit card, a credit card, different ways to deposit and spend it. And so I think we're really just going to listen to the customers and say, okay, thank you for trusting us with Nook Now, where do you want your money to go? What do you want to do with your money? And it's a little too early to tell, but I want to listen to the customer base that we've built and listen to the community and go from there.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 24:12

Yeah. And recently Robinhood announced, you know, tokenized stocks, even though they're not actually tokenized stocks, but you know, I think that whole RWA narrative is slowly creeping into Web3 and even Web2 as well. And do you have any strategies around that where like people can deposit USDC, but it actually goes into a different savings account.

Joey Isaacson: 24:39

Yeah, that's a great question. I personally don't have any great strategies. And that kind of goes into the trade part of, I understand the technology, but I'm not a great strategist in terms of my trades personally. What's tended to work for Nook and tended to work for me is let the really smart, you know, traders and sharps kind of figure that out and then see where the money's going. Okay, is money going into Moonwell? Is money going into the new CB token that they're adopting? Is money going into RWAs with fixed bonds, et cetera, and T-bills?

Joey Isaacson: 25:08

I think what we have the advantage of is we can see where people on crypto Twitter and the smart money is going, as they say, and then kind of follow that and say, okay, people are making a lot of money over here. Let's point the Nook customer base at that. So I think RWAs just opens up more ways for smart people to earn money. We're going to see how it's used. And then based on that, I think we'll adopt that to Nook and let people get there through Nook. But we don't have to be cutting edge and always trying to get 40% or 100% APY. Our customers are very happy with beating their bank accounts and getting 7, 8% APY. And this just operates, this just creates so many more ways to do that.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 25:45

And once the people are on Nook and they start to understand, okay, I'm earning more now. Also, I think the next step is kind of like education. Like how do you get them a little bit, you know, kind of better understanding of like what is behind the hood? You know, how is it making money? You know, maybe some people get interested about that, right? I mean, and wanting to find more opportunities outside of it.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 26:06

And I find that now, like if you're a brand new person coming into Web3, I mean, the internet's flooded with all this information. It's very hard to kind of understand what's going on in DeFi. It's just too much information. And I know Coinbase has done pretty well with their academy. I think Binance does it. I think a few exchanges do it quite well to educate people to understand crypto in general. Do you have any plans to educate your clients about, okay, maybe the next step is this or like that, or maybe just have them kind of understand a little bit more about the Web3 industry in general?

Joey Isaacson: 26:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think just having conversations like this that I'm having with you right now is super helpful for me and then sharing that back out to our customers. And so. We're at the place now where we have a growing amount of customers, but it's not a huge amount where it's like Coinbase. So we're not going to create an academy just yet or a big program. We're just going to keep it in open conversation with our customers and say, hey, last week, this is what we saw, this is what we learned, and this is what we shipped.

Joey Isaacson: 27:07

And so we have a weekly newsletter in which we kind of update how we've made progress and what we're seeing in the market. And then every Friday, similar to what we did at Coinbase as engineers and designers, we post how we've changed the app. So this is what's changing This is what we're adding and here's how it's improved. And we think if we just stick to that kind of cycle, we'll get a better sense of, one, we'll build trust, I think, with our customers so they know that we are building in the open and working on this in the open.

Joey Isaacson: 27:32

And then two, customers feel free to reach out to us. My email is joey@nookapp.xyz. My customers email me all times a day. I always try and respond within four to five hours. And that's been the most helpful thing so far. But I want to keep it close in terms of like, you can always reach me. You know, I'm not just a guy in an office somewhere. I want to enjoy these days while we're a small company. And so people can learn from me directly. And I can learn from them directly.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 27:55

Yeah, absolutely. So we're kind of at the end of the episode now. So do you have any parting messages where people can find you, understand about Nook?

Joey Isaacson: 28:03

Yeah, if you search Nook Savings, you'll find us. And I think parting messages is start small with as small as $5 on Nook or any of these amazing lending protocols like Morpho or Moonwell and just learn by doing. That's how I kind of got to where I am today. So yeah, I'm always excited to talk to you, Taka, and this has been great.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 28:21

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