Takatoshi Shibayama: 0:00

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to this week's episode of Blockhead's Blockcast. I'm your host, Takatoshi Shibayama. I'm also the head of APAC for Ledger. I aim to uncover the creative, intelligent, and radical minds who are shaping the crypto industry today. I'm as crypto curious as anybody that's tuning into this show. We're doing this together, guys. Let's go. Today, we have a very intriguing guest, Jeremy Tan, who recently made waves in Singapore's political scene. While he didn't win the election, he brought Bitcoin to the forefront of national conversation and secured a very impressive 36% of the vote in Mountbatten SMC. But we're here to talk about his views on Bitcoin and why he thinks Singapore needs it. For our listeners who may not be familiar, Singapore has been dominated by the PAP for many years and any challenge to their influence is noteworthy. Jeremy's result as an independent candidate is historic and showing shifting opinions in the region. Welcome to the show, Jeremy.

Jeremy Tan: 1:01

Thanks for having me, guys.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 1:02

And while this conversation is about Bitcoin, just a disclaimer, nothing that we say here is financial advice, political advice, or even endorsement of any sort. So, Jeremy, you mentioned that your campaign got the PAP to say the word Bitcoin in a rally. Why is that significant and how did the public react to your Bitcoin-focused proposals?

Jeremy Tan: 1:21

Well, firstly, the fact that they bothered having a rally to address my policies means that they take it seriously. And I think the second part is that when they want to talk about Bitcoin, it shows that they might have different factions of thought inside of their party and inside of the regulatory bodies. The only way that I thought we would be able to get more Bitcoin adoption in Singapore is to go directly like a hot knife through butter and let's go and go for the legislation that enables more Bitcoin adoption. And that's why I felt like it was something that's significant because never before in Singapore's history in politics has Bitcoin ever been an issue. That's absolutely true.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 2:02

But I think from the MAS's perspective, they probably think that crypto or Bitcoin included is a speculative asset class. They really try to make it conservative and put a cap on how much people can invest in crypto. What are your thoughts around that?

Jeremy Tan: 2:17

I think obviously that has been the mainstream news narrative. But if we look at all of the different projects and initiatives happening in the background, the political party is not exactly a first timer when it comes to Bitcoin and other crypto adoption. We have the Amber Group that they've invested in. We have the DDEX that the DBS has launched for institutional training of crypto. We have the Bitcoin futures for institutions that want to perform delta neutral strategies. Unfortunately, we're invested in FTX. There's an ongoing group and a groundswell movement of people in Singapore that actually wants to push forth. But I think what the media is saying and what the on the ground thing saying is two different worlds. So I think that with my candidacy, I just wanted to really push a little more of the institutions, putting more effort into discussing a -SGD-denominated Bitcoin ETF and all of the other stuff that I've mentioned.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 3:18

Yeah. And I've seen ETFs being launched in the US. I mean, previously, I think it was in 2019, Australia probably was the first one to launch a crypto index. And they also have like five Bitcoin spot ETFs Hong Kong last year launched one of those I mean the traction has aside from the US has been quite muted I mean I just last checked the Hong Kong spot Bitcoin it was like 18k Bitcoin in there I mean it's pretty minimal and why do you think that in Singapore it'll gain attraction

Jeremy Tan: 3:47

yeah I think because we are the fourth largest financial hub and we have to buy all food and energy of US dollars the idea of having some form of insurance policy against US dollar irresponsibility is important it could be a case where right now it's Trump's administration, previously it was Biden's administration. We don't know if the financial system can take another shock. For example, what happens if a second COVID occurs? Can the US dollar system rebalance itself in time to fight inflation? Will we be able to withstand that kind of shocks in our financial system because all of our banks are capitalized on gold and US treasuries, right? And what happens if the tariffs deal, it doesn't go through and further negotiate affects the US dollar going forward like right I think there was a news just two days ago saying that our exchange rate could one day hit parity US dollar. That in itself is not a great thing for Singapore because we export so many things and we should not be too happy about these things, right?

Takatoshi Shibayama: 4:45

I think you really hit the nail on the head on in terms of like what a lot of these commodities and things that, you know, we purchase on a day-to-day basis here in Singapore, largely is based on USD. And, you know, that's pretty much why Bitcoin was created, right? It was supposed to be a hedge against not only US dollars, but, you know, fiat denominated currencies. And we need to have an alternative financial system so that we're not affected by governments, their political agendas. And those are things that are largely affected to the US dollars. And it shouldn't be affected by everyday citizens. And it was created for the people. So having this Bitcoin ETF, how did that change people's financials, their savings, their retirement plans, et cetera?

Jeremy Tan: 5:31

I think if we have a Singapore dollar denominated Bitcoin ETF, the first thing it acts is it will act as a liquidity sponge for a family offices wanting to set up in Singapore and also want to have institutional grade collateral, a Bitcoin ETF in their books would be the best. Secondly, because of the proposals that I have for the viewers overseas, I propose for something like a 401k style investable in a Bitcoin ETF. So right now we don't have that. But if you are in the US, you could use your 401ks to pick up either MSTR or the iBit ETFs. I think that is the first step and that would really help us go forward in terms of sucking up liquidity and throwing it into the future because it's locked by a pension mechanism. I think that would be very, very helpful. And that would really create a system whereby we get to stop treating property land assets as retirement assets, which is just landlordism and it's not productive.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 6:30

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, the price surge in real estate prices has been significant, especially post-COVID times. You've seen a lot of foreign capital come in by real estate largely really served the people who actually have assets. But what about the new generation of people who are coming into the workforce? It made it really difficult for them to make money, right? Or even buy real estate to begin with. So I can see this as something that is an alternative asset class. But another thing does come to mind and I'm from Japan, largely people rely on real estate and just savings in general, right? I think the financial literacy is key, right? And I was being an advocate of like adding financial financial education in schools and for people to learn about how to invest in other asset classes other than physical real estate. What do you think about that?

Jeremy Tan: 7:19

So for the listeners that are unfamiliar with Singapore's housing scheme, 77% of Singaporeans live in a public housing scheme that has a 99-year lease. Towards the end of the lease, something in the 70th year, it becomes almost impossible to sell because of things like entropy, problems with the house, and government plans to reclaim land. So the policy that we are trying to really deal with is ensuring that people do not put their life savings into bigger government houses just because they think that they will be able to flip it for profit. Why I thought about Bitcoin as a natural replacement is because Once we have this mentality that land is not a retirement asset, we will start to be able to make policies that are more economically productive. If we look at what's happened in major cities like Tokyo, like Hong Kong, Seoul, and even Singapore, the majority of the youths will never be able to afford freehold land. They are only able to afford leases that are either 70 years or 99 years in city centers. So that is a policy that, like what you said, they do not compound their wealth. And right now, the assumption is that you compound your wealth into a house that a future generation can buy from. But what if AI takes away their incomes? Then the housing prices are theoretically this much, but your job incomes will not allow you to buy that house. And that's the thing that East Asian economies need to worry about because it's going to hurt everyone's future generation.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 8:49

And Tim, you're part of Blockhead. Welcome to joining us for this round. But as a Singaporean, what do you think about that?

Timothy Misir: 8:55

Jeremy's proposals and speech really resonated with me, but I'm already a believer in Bitcoin and its role as a hedge against currency debasement globally. A large segment of the population still needs convincing or wants to see more proof that Bitcoin or cryptocurrency space in general is not one that's just a breeding ground for scams and money games. I'm interested in Jeremy's journey. You know, a lot of his policy proposals are clearly fueled by his personal conviction. So, I mean, Jeremy, if I could ask, what was the early adopter to having a strong conviction that Bitcoin holds significant potential for a place like Singapore.

Jeremy Tan: 9:31

So it's really great we have a Japanese guy on the pod because the first time I bought Bitcoin was with Mt. Gox. At that point in time, people were already calling $300 to be overvalued. And I guess maybe it's because of the price tag that looked in comparison to, say, Amazon stock. Back then, Amazon was trading around $450 and people were saying that this cannot be on the same scale as Amazon. Jeff Bezos famously once said it's easier to get from $100 to $1,000 in shares, share price as compared to a $0 to $100. And that is the case for Bitcoin. It looks like the journey from 100,000, which we just got last night, to a million might be easier from zero to 100,000, right? Bitcoin is very interesting because the longer it exists and the bigger it gets, the safer it gets. Usually with companies, the larger they get, it becomes an empire. It becomes too clunky. It becomes bureaucratic. But Bitcoin does not have that problem. It has no counterparty risk. It has more security as it gets bigger. And because of the way Bitcoin is designed, you cannot buy more of it just with printing more cash because of its supply dynamics, you know, nodes and the miners. That is something that Bitcoin for me really resonates with because growing up, it would be a case whereby you worry about your housing first and you will take on jobs you don't like or make life decisions you don't wish to do because you worry about that floor pricing to clear, right? Can I even afford a house in a place that I wanted And it's usually near where you stay, right? Where your parents grew up, that's usually where you want to be.

Jeremy Tan: 11:11

In my personal journey, I mean, my parents have a government flat that its lease is decaying very quickly and they're able to list it, but then they're not able to find any buyers because of the huge cash outlay that is required to pay for that house and because the banks don't want to take on duration risk for buyers, right, of old housing. So that journey translated for me into knowing that, okay, this is personal for me because the concept of having the houses as a retirement asset was starting to break. And I witnessed it personally. And that's when I started to think about the solutions. As I thought about the solutions, I started to realize that, hey, my Bitcoin from Mt. Gox is now worth, you know, at a market price that I think when I announced my candidacy, it was around $80,000. And I realized that, look, if we really push for just the baby steps of, you know, iBit style ETF We will be able to get people to start moving away money that they thought should be in housing or land into something that is durable and finite. And I thought, what would be the best way to educate Singaporeans in general and as a whole without having to go through seminars, books, and all that? It is to go through the election process and to really try to make my performance a historic one so that people start to wonder why is he getting so many votes? If he's getting so many votes, surely the rich people are knowing something and they must have a reason to vote him in. In the constituency that I was contesting in, we have houses that are easily worth $20 to $50 million. They are one of the richest constituencies in Singapore. They do not have so much exposure to political parties' risk because they are so mobile. They can go anywhere they want. And because of that, I thought that that would be a perfect place to show Singapore that the rich take inflation very seriously because inflation on a large amount is way more painful than inflation on just your everyday necessities and daily goods, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Timothy Misir: 13:22

One of your key proposals was to include Bitcoin in Singapore's official foreign reserves, arguing that it's superior to gold. Could you explain your reasoning and why you believe this is crucial for Singapore's financial future?

Jeremy Tan: 13:32

So for the people that are unaware of how Singapore's market monetary policy works, we have a disclosed reserves, official foreign reserves, of which we have roughly around $350 billion in gold and US treasuries. That is the disclosed portion. The undisclosed portion is something estimated between $1.4 trillion to $2.6 trillion. They comprise of land, farmland, shares in corporations that are critical around the world, comprises of gold. So that is the thing that I want Singapore to really consider adopting Bitcoin in. And the reason why I do that is because We can see that both America and China owns 40% of the mining pools involved in Bitcoin. They themselves know that they are buying insurance policies on their very own US dollar irresponsibility. So if this is the case, then what is Singapore doing? Our official stance right now is that it does not want to directly hold cryptocurrency. It only involves itself in investing in companies. However, this is a very risky thing to do, as we've seen with FTX. And even with a very famous company, Three Arrows Capital, as it was here as well, I believe maybe Galaxy has some exposure here. So this is something that we need to self-custody and manage with institutional-grade custody that we manage on our own. We obviously want it because we want security over our fiscal policy and our monetary policy.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 14:59

Generally, when you look at other countries around the world, they're talking about strategic reserves, or in this case, in Singapore, you call it official foreign reserves. Countries buy Bitcoin for the purpose of kind of diversifying, you know, away from gold, other asset classes. And to me, like when I think about Bitcoin is generally, as I said in the beginning, it's like for the people, by the people, you know, and I don't really particularly think like governments should be owning Bitcoin in general because we want it to be more in the hands of people rather than being stockpiled by governments. Right. And the more, you know, other countries start adopting this, buying more Bitcoin or other big corporations buying Bitcoin, it gets less in the hands of people because they just store it. They're not trading it. They're not doing other things with it. They're just storing it. So then less for the people. So what is your opinion around that?

Jeremy Tan: 15:49

So the reason why I propose having a Bitcoin ETF in Singapore dollars and also having the pension funds enabled to be investing in this Bitcoin ETF is because, like what you said, you're right. The corporations and the global interest keeps buying Bitcoin, but we rather them buy buy Bitcoin in Singapore, and them buying Bitcoin in a Singapore dollar denominated Bitcoin ETF would mean pumping the backs of Singaporeans and their savings. If I invest any $10,000 of my pension funds inside Singapore's Bitcoin ETF, and I'm able to see that corporations that want to set up family offices here They need to clear a certain amount of investment. They say, why don't we put it in Bitcoin ETF and we lock it up? That would help Singaporean savings grow as well. And that's a mechanism that would really, really help Singapore give people accessibility to Bitcoin, right? And most people have also came up to me during this campaign trail telling me, look, Bitcoin is like $100,000 or whatever it is. I can never afford it. But you don't buy your... houses overnight you buy it bit by bit for over 30 years right there's this one famous guy on x he said bitcoin auto buys for 30 a day and then he's now he's a millionaire he's did it over seven years imagine what you could do over 35 years which is five times the amount of time, I think you're really going to see an effect that compounds. And compounding in Bitcoin is way better than compounding in any fiat currency.

Timothy Misir: 17:19

Is this what you were referring to when you called Bitcoin the "ultimate Milo tin can"?

Jeremy Tan: 17:25

Yeah.

Timothy Misir: 17:25

Could you explain this analogy to the average Singaporean crypto investor?

Jeremy Tan: 17:29

So to the average Singaporean and the international listener, people in Singapore used to be coolie workers carrying sacks of rice. They would take their wages in terms of paper dollars and they would put in a cut out tin can and that Milo tin can was where they put their money in they would seal it off and you know they would put it somewhere in their bedroom or in the kitchen because that would be the least conspicuous place to hide it so Bitcoin is the ultimate superior tin can here because whatever you put inside, it will always be something of value, not just paper.

Timothy Misir: 18:00

Looking back at your campaign, is there anything that you would have done differently in terms of communicating your vision for Bitcoin in Singapore?

Jeremy Tan: 18:06

I actually thought it was a double-edged sword because it gave me a lot of press, both weird press and good press. At the start, it gave me a lot of bad press because everybody thinks that I'm here to get fame for myself. But as people start to realize that I only cared about Bitcoin and nothing else, they And they started to realize that the wealthy start to realize that their children cannot afford housing in Singapore anymore. That's when they started to think maybe this guy makes sense. And also because the wealthy have very much paid the most tax in Singapore. Singapore is not a low tax environment as much people think. We pay in tax in terms of VAT. We pay a lot of property tax. We pay all kinds of tax on cars. So it's not exactly a low tax environment as people think. When people start to realize the regime that they live in, they started to take my ideas more seriously. And when they started to listen about all the statistics about inflation over the past couple of years, and how all 80%, the M1SL has all of 80% of The M1SL was printed the last five years. They started to realize that, look, this is something they need to take seriously. And that's why I chose where I chose, because the rich understand the need to fend off inflation from their multi-million dollar assets. What about the non-rich people? I

Takatoshi Shibayama: 19:21

mean, how do they respond to your talks about Bitcoin?

Jeremy Tan: 19:23

They were very much excited just to see somebody contest. For the listeners that do not know, this place was a typically stronghold for the incumbent party. So it is always taken that the The incumbent party does not need to put in effort in a stronghold because there are so many rich here. But there are, like you said, poor people here as well. And in this area, they just saw life to be out of reach for them. They will never be able to see retirement adequacy, and they've been living off welfare, vouchers, eggs, and everything's been redistributive. And the amount of redistribution has been going up and up and up. So it's very interesting because the place that I contested in pays the most amount of income tax, property tax, and the people that need it the most also stays in the same constituency. So for them, they decided to also expressed with their vote that they are unhappy with the way it is because the vouchers will never ever give them the retirement adequacy with dignity that they want.

Timothy Misir: 20:24

I'm interested to hear your thoughts about Bitcoin particularly concerning retirement savings in the CPF Central Provident Fund which is Singapore's version of I guess a 401k. Can you elaborate on how this would work and you've mentioned about guaranteeing CPF Bitcoin investments at the CPF floor rate. What are the potential risks and rewards of this?

Jeremy Tan: 20:42

So obviously the risk is that to guarantee any form of pension fund returns, one must clear the investment hurdle rate of inflation first, right? And also one must be getting real returns. But secondly, it's also a case whereby you need to manage your treasury strategy very well. All of our pension funds are guaranteed by holding some form of US dollars in terms of treasuries, we are unable to escape this fact of life because we have no natural resources and we cannot barter with people using barrels of oil because we also don't have oil. The reason why I proposed guaranteeing the interest flow rate of your pension fund is because we want people to start feeling that they are able to invest in this asset class that has gotten a notorious name. We want people to feel as if they have the same amount of backing as they would usually be investing in their regular pension funds, right? So that's the first reason why I want this policy because we want people to feel comfortable dipping their toes into some place that's unknown. The second thing that I'm proposing as well, it's also to stop giving out goodies and vouchers for babies to be spent immediately on day-to-day life stuff, which is your milk powder, your food, all that. So this year, for your listeners, we are actually proposing that I am proposing that we spend $10,000 to lock it in BTC for up until they turn 21. This will give them a better outlook in life. in decision-making, just give them some freedom to think about what they want to do throughout life. And this also takes away moral hazard. Should the parents want to take their money away to do things, they won't be able to do so. In comparison, the incumbent is actually giving out $16,000 in goodies and necessities for children, up to $16,000. So that is not something I want because poor families stay poorer when they do not have assets that compound. The wealth compound for their children earlier in life and for longer in life and that is why we need to solve this because Singapore is one of the highest wealth inequalities in the world and this is actually very important for us to reset this policy and help people who are poor catch up with the people who are already rich

Timothy Misir: 23:00

What kind of feedback did you get whether positive or negative from voters or people you spoke to on the ground regarding these policy proposals

Jeremy Tan: 23:08

Yeah, so I think with the younger voters they know that they are unable to afford some of the housing that they really, really want. And they are also unable to buy Bitcoin because Bitcoin looks daunting at 100,000 US dollars. Yeah. But, you know, because we have a mandatory national pension fund saving scheme, I think they will be a bit more happy to see if they can use funds that are locked away to be investing in Bitcoin. A lot of the Bitcoin's volatility is only because Bitcoin has been around for close to about, what, 15, 16 years now. But what if double that time? we are going to expect volatility to come down. And when that happens, we're going to see the fruits really bear itself in the next 20 to 30 years. In this situation, a lot of the younger voters have realised that this situation mechanism works because they don't have to keep raising the retirement age they don't have to keep raising the age where one can withdraw from their retirement account and the sums that they are able to withdraw because right now in singapore just about every five years they make changes to how much you can withdraw how much interest you're getting your pension and the age that you can start withdrawing and these factors actually affect how long you work and how long you're able to enjoy life. So having explained all of my policies and why my policies worked really resonated with younger voters and younger voters spoke with their parents and their grandparents to also come and vote for me and create a historical record that I did, even with the highest amount of absentee voters in my constituency. So I believe that they will see a future in the things that I'm proposing.

Timothy Misir: 24:50

Yeah, I think one of the successes, I guess, of this campaign is that you've brought Bitcoin or digital assets to the forefront of national conversation. So it's no longer a fringe topic, but something that warrants serious consideration. What message do you have for young people in Singapore who are just starting to learn about cryptocurrency and its potential?

Jeremy Tan: 25:08

Yeah, Firstly, they should read Blockhead more. Secondly, I think they should also not use leverage. They should definitely buy Bitcoin in the safest way. They can either direct custody or they could buy it on using iBit ETF. They could use any of their local brokerages to purchase Bitcoin or iBit ETF. And if you want to go and buy Bitcoin in a more volatile way, you could buy MSTR and have a first study done of Bitcoin before you perhaps study other cryptocurrencies because Ethereum and Solana is a very big and daunting ecosystem. But ironically, with the ETFs, it's starting to look like Bitcoin is the easiest to understand as opposed to other cryptocurrencies. So maybe for the new and upcoming study Bitcoin first, and then you have an understanding of the rest of the cryptocurrency ecosystem.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 26:00

Yeah. And Bitcoin nowadays is having a different kind of outlook to it these days. You know, initially started off with, you know, people in crypto just kind of like looking at Bitcoin as a store of value. Now you're starting to see institutional adoption, ETFs, all these things are coming. And now you have like corporations buying it as a reserve as well. Like Michael Strategies, you know, recently 21 Capital came up, SPAC with Tether, right? SoftBank as well, right? Yeah. So it was a SoftBank, Tether and Cantor Fitzgerald, which is like an amazing combination. If you think about it, you got a U.S. financial institution, a soft bank, which is a Japanese company, which is a quintessential company that is in decline. And they're looking for growth outside of Japan. And then you got Tether, which kind of, you know, even in the crypto industry is seen as the outlier, but they're trying to go legit and trying to buy like a listed company and then trying to bring their bitcoins and their USDT into the mainstream. So I think it's a really interesting combination. And then now you have like these layer twos of bitcoins, you have like Bitcoin finance all these stakings, you know, LBDC and all this kind of stuff coming up. So how do you see this landscape kind of shaping up?

Jeremy Tan: 27:08

I think this landscape is great, but it must be driven by the institutions first. And when the institutions want to create simple retail products, they leverage this landscape. Some of the products that I've actually recommended nationally to policy advisors and people working in the government is a very simple product like locking your Bitcoin when you purchase it on your brokerage account and offering you margin to buy ETFs. For example, if you have one Bitcoin in your brokerage account, we are going to lock it to provide you perhaps 25% margin to only buy ETFs. I think that is a novel product that you could use to entice people because they only want safe options. So perhaps they buy a dividend ETF with margin provided from a locked Bitcoin. These are the kinds of things that people could get. Another one would be a modified form of a Singapore dollar Bitbond, where 85% of it would be in Sing dollars and 15% of it would be in Bitcoin. So you participate in the ups but the downside is protected by the government. So these are very simple products to get started and the institutions would then find out how much exposure and how much retail interest there are and they would use that retail interest to create products on the B2B level. Then you could talk about having all those stacks and all the different L2s and even between institutions, bridging from token to token would be something of their flavor. We shouldn't let the ordinary institutions investor custody on their own. I don't trust people to keep their wallets and their passports. I don't trust them to keep their Bitcoin.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 28:45

Yeah.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 28:46

I think, you know, even though I work for Ledger and promote the whole thing about self-custody, I think having ETFs, you're only paying like 50 bps for management fee, right? That's a lot more safe than having your own wallet, trying to remember 24 seed password, locking it up in a safety deposit box, right? And for the novice people, I think, you know, going to ETFs is the kind of like the normal way that they should get a hold of this as a class.

Jeremy Tan: 29:11

You know, looking at multi-sig wallets and having cold storage is always good if you have the ability and the knowledge too. But if you want to just get started, perhaps you could really try to just go and buy on your brokerage first and understand how to off-ramp your crypto and self-custody your crypto. But you can't do that. You shouldn't do that immediately trying to learn the whole journey if you find it too daunting, right? And of course, for larger amounts, institutional amounts, the strategy is usually a mix of having physical wallets and also hot wallets and co-wallets. But for the best of this industry, It is the institutions that must get it started and retail must follow up by just getting a first buy-in, right? And then they can move on to it. I mean, I have a ledger that I have to go and check every day, making sure it's there, my dog hasn't bitten it. And it's because I believe in self-custody as well. But for those who don't understand it, You don't have to understand it now, but try to understand it eventually. And so what's next for Jeremy Tan? Are you going to run next time? Yeah, I think I'll be looking at all the options. I'm speaking with policymakers, I'm speaking with political parties, and I'm letting them know that my line in the sand is economic policy. It is something that I will not budge on because it affects all of our lives. And the best outcome will be the one where we can fundamentally change the way we treat retirement assets and fundamentally change the way we view inflation, pension funds so speaking of everybody and for those in the Bitcoin industry and the crypto industry if you have good ideas please reach out to me I want to learn and work with you.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 30:50

How can people follow you or reach out to you?

Jeremy Tan: 30:52

They can follow me on my website jeremytan.sg they can drop me a LinkedIn it's on my website as well and anytime on Instagram IG jeremytan.sg.

Takatoshi Shibayama: 31:02

Well thank you very much for your time and sharing your thoughts. Thanks Tim. Thanks Taka. Thanks for listening. If you like what you hear give, BlockCast a like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms, Spotify, Apple, whatever they are. And for all the juicy web3 news keep updated on blockhead.co. Catch you all in next episode.